From the Godrej DEI Lab, welcome to India Included. Here’s your host, Parmesh Shahani.
Welcome to Episode 3 of India Included. You are already a fan by now and have shared this podcast details with everyone you know na? What? For the miniscule minority of you who haven't, jaldi - please share our podcast on your socials - so Insta, Linkedin everywhere. Tell your friends, tell your family, tell everyone you know it's the bestest podcast they will ever listen to, and it's a podcast where we speak to change makers who are all in their own ways, creating a better and more diverse and inclusive India.
I trust you haan - which is why I’m going ahead with the rest of this episode. Don’t angry me by doing dhoka. In my version of LSD, the d is for dhokla, not dhoka. So, share with everyone, and actually by now you know what you want to send me as a gift if you’re ever in the mood. A nice big box of dhokla.
So - you know every though naam ke vaaste I’m a viva Vikhroli diva, I have a secret. I’m going to come, tada! - out of the closet on this show and reveal that I actually grew up as a Sobo behen. Breaking news! Oh my god you know, like the TRPs are going to go off the charts.
And you know, every time I go back to South Bombay, I try and do a little walk where I cross this one particular spot at Oval Maidan, where it looks out to the Cooperage Bandstand on the right, with Churchgate station at the end of the road on the left (in my mind this is before the metro construction and all that) and I think of the brilliant filmmaker Riyad Vinci Wadia.
In 1996, when he was still in his twenties, he made and released BOMgAY – the first Indian gay film. It was 11 minutes long, shot all over the city, and referenced so many cruising spots at that time, like the Gateway of India walls, and the Churchgate station loos. Yes darlings, there WAS life before Grindr and Tinder. Uff, what to say to these kids now.
When I saw it in 1997, I was 21 years old, and it really blew my mind open about how we as Indians could tell our own queer narratives so powerfully. It literally changed my life, this film. I was really lucky that Riyad became a mentor. He wrote my recommendation letter that got me into MIT in the US, and in fact my first book Gay Bombay is dedicated to him. He unfortunately passed away too soon, in 2003 and I am actually so angry about this because if only he had waited.
Because he would have been able to meet the next gen queers like my guest today, who are building on his work and persona - outly and proudly. The thing is – throughout Indian film history, many filmmakers have been LGBTQIA+ secretly. And generations of movies, art and entertainment have all depicted LGBTQIA+ lives – but either for comedy or featuring queer people as villains or tragic figures. Thankfully today, there are queer filmmakers who are out and confidently telling complex, rich and real stories of what it means to be queer in India and how it intersects with other aspects of being Indian.
So in this episode, we are going to talk about queer representation, and I believe the same holds true for other kinds of representation too. I’m interested in this subject not only as an artist and as a storyteller, but as a business leader. Some of the questions I will explore in this episode are questions we’re constantly discussing at the Godrej Industries Group, too, as we think about the societies and the markets in which we serve customers. Who tells our stories, what kind of characters get to be included in those stories? When those stories change, does it mean that the status quo is changing? And do the stories we bring to life on screen create progress for the people to whom those stories belong?
For today’s podcast, I’m sitting across from Faraz Arif Ansari, right in the midst of the release of their major new feature film, Bun Tikki. Before this they’ve made the brilliant short films Sheer Qorma and Sisak and done so much more. I’m going to talk to them about how they became a voice of their generation, how they are bringing queer, non-binary stories to the screen and representing Indian LGBTQIA+ life – and Indian Muslim LGBTQIA+ life – in new ways.
Faraz, thank you so much, and welcome to India included.
Thank you so much. Parmesh, I'm so excited to be doing this with you after all these years.
I just always remember you being a complete diva fashion and fashion icon. And I was like, I want to rob everything - I want to rob everything you have.
You've been the inspiration for so many of us, Parmesh. I think, you know, for me, growing up also, we didn't really have a lot of people to look up to, right? We lived very different lives. I grew up in the 90s. I remember when I was in school, the sense of watching someone visibly, who you could identify with never existed, right. But I remember the first time I saw you, you were wearing a white shirt and you had a red flowing jacket on, and you were wearing blue pants. It's like, imprinted in my memory, and you had these fabulous glasses on. And remember it was a breezy days, your jacket was like, full flutter was happening. But I remember that visual, you know, for a queer person who's not grown up with the freedom to be who we want to be, to see another person out there living, I think that is such a moment of truth, you know.
Yeah. No, thank you. And I had that because I grew up, I'm like, maybe one generation before you, right? So I had people like Riyadh, I had people like James Corey, so many who were that for for me. And when I grew up, I was craving these Indian representations, because, I mean, one read in the papers and one saw and at that time there was no internet. There was the world this week that came on NDTV - by NDTV once in a week, where we could see international news. So one saw all of these things, but somehow, Elton, John, George Michael, it's very different from, say, you know, seeing your own or seeing your own people, even at that time, so that you could be queer in Indian context. So thank you. Now very soon, because you're already a world famous superstar, and after this film comes out, everyone will know your origin story, but because you are destined to be one of our Indian cinema legends. But for now on this podcast, I just want to know your origin story before we talk about other things. So, you know, did you grow up in Bombay? Where did you study? Are you from a filmy family, like, what brought you to you know, here?
Yeah no, I wanted to make films since I was four years old. This is bizarre. I grew up in Bombay, but my roots are from all over the place, right? So my grandparents were from some other place, and then they migrated here, and they chose to live here, right, when Partition happened? My dadi, in fact, which I realised much later in life, she was a Sikhni from Punjab, but undivided Punjab. So she was from Lahore, and she used to be an actress back in the day. She used to do theater, so I think maybe I get it from her, because that's the closest connect I have with anything to do with the arts. Nobody in my in my family has an artistic bone to them right at all, not even a DNA, not even like a cell. I went to St. Mary's, which is at - All boys, thank god. Sounds so wrong, but thank God for that. I think I was in my first grade, and I used to wear the shortest shorts to school, right? The shortest. And I remember I was the monitor in my first grade. And I remember walking down the rows and just feeling that everyone is just looking at me. I'm the hottest thing in the world. And later, when I saw Karina Kapoor in Kabhi Khushi Kabhi Gham, I was like, that is me, 10/10. You know, so -
So you loved attention.
I enjoy attention. Especially when you're denied it for such a long time, you want it all the more when you get it right. But now, I think when you find who you are, you get a little bit more comfortable. And then that need to shout does not really exist. Then the shout transforms in just being, right, which I think has happened with me now. So -
No, and you're - to me, you've always been luminous, so whether you like it or not, you are going to shine. And so you know, you just have to be yourself. And that's, yeah.
Yeah. That reminds me of something my mom always used to tell me. She says, You are the sun. She says Aap aaftab ho. Right, she always said that. She said, clouds will come, clouds will go, you will continue to shine, even when it's night you'll be shining, you know. So it's like something that I've embraced, really, you know. And thank you for saying that. It's so beautiful.
I wish she was here when the film was -
I know, although she did see Sheer Korma, and she happened to see it with Shabana Azmi and Divya and Swara, at Soho House. But she knew of Bun Tikki, because I wrote it in during the pandemic, yeah. So she was my litmus. Every time I wrote a scene, I used to go and narrated to her and I was like, what do you think of this? "I think it's nice, but you know what if you do this?" And it's bizarre we're talking about my mum, because, you know, I think last week I went to see Veer Zaara, Yash Chopra's, because it's - everything's re-releasing these days. And I remember, when I'd gone to see Veer Zaara with my mum when it had released, and when we walked out of the theater, she was very overwhelmed with the film and all, very dramatically, you know, she held my hand, and she said - she gave me the permission after watching Veer Zaara, she said, you make films, and you make films like Veer Zaara, because it's not just a romance, it's not just a love story; it's political, it's social, it's about people from different faiths coming together. It is such a culmination and such a needed dialog, even in present times. You know, Yash Chopra has always been way ahead of his times.
Very different kind of masculinity also.
Absolutely. That masculinity is something that I understand. See Parmesh, when I grew up, I grew up surrounded by women - my Khala jaan, my baby and my mama. Three women who brought me up. But I think that sort of softness that I experienced - that sort of transcends even in my work, like mostly all the films that I've made so far, except for Sisak, maybe - all of them have a female protagonist. Like Shabana in Sheer Korma. Now, of course, in Bun Tikki there's Shabana and Zeenat. And in times where, you know, where everyone wants everything to be male, mard, man, right? They want the protagonist to be a man. The minute you tell them, oh, you know, so it's about this girl. They'll be like Oh God. Hero kaun hai? I'm like actually, there's no hero. And they're like, What? Who is she romancing? And there's no romance. What? How is that even possible, right? They want those things, but I think one is trying to do different things, and one is trying to break the clutter in so many ways. You take the road less traveled, not because nobody's taken it, but because maybe it should be taken.
But as you said, this formative childhood, surrounded by love really empowered you to do this. But did you go to film school like, how did you -
No Parmesh, I'm absolutely self taught. I think my biggest learnings have been watching films through the 90s. So Dilwale Dulhania Le Jayenge, Hum Aapke Hain Kaun. I have seen Hum Aapke Hain Kaun more than 100 times. I don't think I've ever said this out loud. Before my examinations, I used to get dreams about Hum Aapke Hain Kaun playing on loop in my mind. I'm not even kidding.
And Tuffy the dog would come and give you the answers.
Tuffy was there, but it was mostly Salman Khan, right? I think, personally, my sense of storytelling comes from my mother, because I remember when I was growing up, we went through very difficult times as a family. Initially, it was all great, right? And then my dad got thrown out of his home because he married my mother, and my mother got thrown out of her home because she married my father. So I think my initial childhood, there were times where there was no food to eat at home, right? Because they were living like really, hand to mouth, and my mother used her storytelling to make sure that if there is not enough food to eat for me, I can listen to those stories and pass out. So stories, by default, became a part of my DNA. Cause when you have nothing else to hold on to, you lean on to stories. So I think largely my storytelling comes from my mother. Rest of I think filmmaking is a little bit of I was obsessed with advertisements. My dad used to work in ads for - he was into neon signs and hoarding boards, right? So we had a lot of hoarding boards across Bombay. I remember because he had a lot of film friends in ads, and I was obsessed with watching ads. I had 100 VHS cassettes at home filled with ad films. My Saturday and my Sunday was only watching ad films on loop. On loop, Parmesh. Because back in the day, of course, we didn't have Apple TV and film
And global, from all over the world. Very nice.
He had access to all of it, and it was just watching that. Once in a while, we used to get a Disney VHS, right, Beauty and the Beast, Cinderella, Snow White, all that jazz right. But then dad started traveling. And then once, I think he just picked up like random films - I think he had gone to Dubai or UAE, somewhere there, and he got like films which had children on the poster. These turned out to be Majid Majidi's films. He had no idea what it was, but thankfully, they had English subtitles in them. And I remember watching Majid Majidi very early in life, right. And I feel like life has a bizarre way of preparing you for what is to come. I believe everything is written. There is a thing called destiny for all of us. Of course, we change it, we tweak it, we play with it. But there are certain truths that remain. The sense of Iranian cinema aesthetic into the telling of the tale - when you look at it, it's a full on Bollywood, right? Everything is like glamorous and everything's pretty. I think Sisak, because I didn't have a lot of budget - I don't know if a lot of people know about this, but I sold my car.
To make Sisak?
To make Sisak.
No, but quickly before that. So you started writing ads.
No, I started writing films, directly. I remember when I was in my ninth grade, I wrote my first feature film, it was called Shayad Yahi Toh Pyar Hai. Which was, I think, a little inspired by Karan Johar's Kabhi Alvida Na Kehna. It was about multiple people in love with each other, and in New York. A girl got a dream. And then, of course, I started working with Amol Gupte as his intern writer on this film called Taare Zameen Par, and then after that, of course, Stanley ka Dabba happened. So films, I started with films as Amol Gupta's Associate Director. And then eventually continued in that journey for some time. You know, after working with Amol, everything was guerilla. Then I was like, but I want to do something like really big. So then I decided to work with Dharma, because Dharma doing the biggest films. But I worked on the smallest film Dharma has ever made, called Gippi. After that Paramesh, I got done with it, and I was like, that's it, I'm done working for others. Now I want to make my own stuff. I think that was the time when I decided to go independent, although it took about 10 years to actually become an independent feature filmmaker, right. Because I believe that even if you're making short films, you are considered to be illegitimate. They don't consider you a filmmaker. They're like kya banayi, short film? Hmm, never mind. The minute you say that I've made a feature film, like you get wings, or you develop like snake coming out of your wing. Something happens.
But you're finally there. You struggled and -
But I'm there now, right. It happened at the lowest time in my life - after I lost my mum, right? So I wasn't prepared. Something that I wanted all my life, and I was like, why is it happening to me now? I can't even enjoy it. You know, it just felt like, so bitter sweet. But I feel like, maybe that's life, you know, so much of that.
And I mean everything that you say about her, she prepared you for it, and then she went, yeah. So in that sense..
She did, no, she did. She did her homework very well, I think so. I remember that Bun Tikki was a film that she never thought will get made, because I don't understand what is commercial. I work from my heart. So whatever comes naturally to me, I make that. I write that. So Bun Tikki was one of those films that I started writing during the pandemic. You remember when Sheer Korma was supposed to have its World Premiere at BFI in London in March? I was on my way to the airport, and then we had to take a U turn and come back, because my mum was like, listen, India is going into lockdown. I said, Yeah, India is going, it's fine. I'm in the UK, how does it matter? She's like, if India is going, how will you come back? I was like, oh okay. So then I've taken a U-Turn, heartbroken, I've come back, and before I've reached home, I've got an email that BFI has been canceled. I was like, shit, right.
So from that low, but tell everyone what Sheer Korma was about.
So I'll tell you where Sheer Korma comes from, right. After I made Sisak, which I think, personally, is like, absolutely from the heart. You know, I shot it on the Bombay local trains. Interestingly, Parmesh we shot the film in six hours, which a lot of people don't know about.
It's incredible. And for those listening, it's one of the most evocative queer films I've seen in my life. It's about a random connection between two men on a Mumbai local who see each other and with no dialogs as well. It's just about a feeling, and it's so powerful, that, yeah.
I wrote Sisak when - so this was pre 377, and Sisak went through the pre and post during its journey. But remember, after I made Sisak, it traveled to like, 200-odd film festivals. It won 60 international awards. But still, I was struggling to be recognized as a filmmaker, and then a lot of people turned around and said, Yeah, but you know, your film does not have any like, big names. I was like what does that have to do with a film? They were like ye India hai, this is how India works. You know, it works on star power. I was like, great. Next film I'm gonna make, I'll have, like, big names. What film I wanted to make, I didn't know that. I just knew I wanted to make a film with big names. That's how it started. Then I remember, I was at Harvard University. Sisak was invited there. We had a screening. And in the screening, there was this one person who asked me a question, and they said, where are the women in your film? And I was like, technically, it's my first film. Don't come at me so hard. And it's about these two people, I think, in the most intimate way, right. I wanted to make a film on that. They were like that's great. But will your next film have some representation of women, of queer women, of non binary people? And at that point, I had no idea what non binary meant, being a queer person, right? This is 2017. We were still waking up, and I was like, I'll try. I'll try, for sure. And that night, rather than feeling very happy that I've just screened at Harvard, I was so sad. I remember I went to a cafe. I've sat and I've cried. I literally I was weeping. I was like, what have I done? And I remember taking a paper napkin, and I always have a pen with me in my bag. I drew this image of two people, their foreheads are touching each other like a lion's kiss, and they both, for some reason, were wearing the namaz ka dupatta. A lot of people call it the hijab, it's not. It's just the namaz ka dupatta. And I was like, that's gonna be my next film. No idea what the story is, nothing. That's it. That was 2017. In 2019 when I was dating someone, and I was living very happily in Germany for like, some months, I started writing Sheer Korma. I think it was the first time in my life I got racially profiled. And then at the same time I was also, like, I faced, like, a homophobic attack - in Germany, of all the places. India mei it has happened, but it happened like, weird ways, right? This was like, out and out, like, real, true, like, I've never seen anything like that. So that kind of irked me. I was like, I need to tell my stories. You know, about queer Muslim people. That propelled me to go all hard on Sheer Korma. And eventually, of course, I made the softest film in the world, a film about acceptance and love - two things that I think our generation, the times that we live in, we're in dire need of it. But there were many things that I wanted to say in that film. Growing up in the 90s, seeing Muslim families represented in Bollywood was pretty heartbreaking. You know, initially Muslim people used to be the courtesans. They were the tawaifs. Then they became the gamblers, then they became these mafias. Then they became the supporting best friends.
Like Hum Aapke Hain Kaun.
Exac - That's the trajectory.
The best friend who will come and do shayari, yeah.
Exactly. We've never been protagonists for who we are, right? They will live in green colored homes. They will say Salaam and have henna colored hair and wear a topi -
Always eat paan
Always eat paan, always speak chaste Urdu. I come from a home which is exactly opposite that, you know, we don't have green colored walls. But I remember this, I think some film I was watching. I remember, I think, on Zee Cinema or something. And my mum turned around. She was so appalled at Muslim representation. She's like, what are they doing? She's like, if you don't change this na, I'd be very disappointed in you. And I was like, No, Mama, I will change it. So I decided to change Muslim representation to show authentic - the way Indian Muslims live. I remember when the trailer, dropped of Sheer Korma - Parmesh, one of the comments that I got from a very close friend said, but Muslim people don't wear saris, right? And I swear to you, I did not even think of that because I was like my mum always wore a sari. She always used to even wear a bindi. How does a piece of clothing have a religion or faith?
But this is the power. Because people have seen so much stereotyping, that's what they fundamentally believe, right? Yeah, that's what you're trying to -
No of course. And that is, that is something that you have to break, right. Sadly, though, a lot of people have still not seen Sheer Korma. We traveled to 300 festivals Parmesh, the film has won more awards than Sisak. It's won 96 awards.
But no one wants to release it?
Nobody wants to buy it.
Hopefully things will change, but I want to explore this little bit more, your queerness and your Muslimness intersecting with each other, because both have been such an important part of your life. And as you now said, you know, framed your work. So I just want to explore that a little more.
So after I finished my my 10th grade in India, I moved to the US, I did my high school there. I did my graduation there, which sort of showed me - I was like, Jasmine on the magic carpet, right, minus Aladdin. I was like wow what is this. What is this first world country? I remember going to Walmart the first time I was like, What is this? Right? But I think that sort of opened me up, and seeing other open queer people living happily with their families and their lovers and children also gave me the courage to come out to my parents. You know, I think when you see representation, you feel that, wow, you know, you're not the only gay person in the village. So I remember coming out to them after that, when I had come back after finishing my graduation, one day - of course, I was going through something very personal. I lost someone I loved very much, and I was unable to attend their funeral in the US. So it was difficult to convince my mom about it. I was like, I really need to go for the funeral. And she was like but for what? And that was the time I had to come out to her. So.. it was probably like bad timed, I shouldn't have come up, because emotionally, I needed my mother the most at that point. But by coming out, I sort of isolated myself all the more, because she was she was shattered, right, shattered, in a way because I'm the only child she has, and all the hopes and all the dreams of an Indian mother. It took her some time to be able to come around and be like, listen, this is going to be very tough for me to accept, but I will try to find my happiness in your happiness.
That's beautiful.
Yeah. And it was my birthday when she decided to speak with me again, and she made this big pot of biryani, as Muslim as as it gets. And she said, are you hungry? And I said, I'm starving. And both of us sat together on the dinner table, and we ate that biryani, and all was well. And after that, we never spoke about my sexuality, ever right
Food as a language - which kind of happened in Sheer Korma as well
Food as a language, which happened in Sheer Korma, yeah.
You could, you didn't think of calling the film Biryani?
Oh, God, then they would have come again. Guns raging for me. But I think my queerness and my Muslimness, I've never been shy of either. I really hold both very dear to me, right? Because that's what makes us who we are, Parmesh, our identities, where we come from, who we are, the way we speak, the way we understand, the way we love. Do I love like a Muslim or do I love like a queer person? I don't know. I love like who I am, which comes from these two experiences as well, along with multiple experiences that have happened to me that bring me here in front of you today. So it's really an amalgamation of multiple things, but it's never not to talk about it, right. And I feel the best way to do it is to be authentic to who you are, right. When you go back to that, the stories that you tell are more honest. And I think that is what makes my cinema a little different, also, because it truly comes from the heart, like, if I don't really feel it, I don't think I'll ever be able to make it. So I think my Muslimness, by default, comes in my films, Although in you do see snippets of it, he's wearing a kurta. Again, people will say only Muslims wear kurta. But in my head, when I was writing the film - of course, there was no way to express that, but I tried to sort of, you know, code it in, in whatever stereotypical form that exists. And I think I do the same in Bun Tikki also. Although I can't talk much about it, but I think my muslimness, my queerness, my - the love for my mother, the love for I think all the cinema that I've grown up watching, it's all at this play in Bun Tikki. Everything.
And it's so important for us as viewers to see, right and also to be seen, then. Because so much of our cinema, we don't feel seen. And if we don't feel seen, how will we value ourselves? How will we imagine? How will we, you know, create possibilities for ourselves, or how will we belong?
Yeah, absolutely, that sense of belonging that is the most important thing in this universe.
Yeah. And that representation of all kinds is important.
100%. And hence, I think there's no formula to it, right. When people go with formula, they make really terrible films which have queer characters in it, because they want to make a queer film. They don't want to make an honest film. The problem lies, I think, in that journey. When you want to make something which is true to who you are, you end up making something which will come from those deep recesses in your heart and put forward something which will truly speak to everyone across the spectrum. So I think that is important.
So as part of that honesty, you feel it's important, say, for queer people to tell our own stories, for Muslims to tell our stories.
See what happens when, when non-queer people make queer films - also, I personally, I don't think films have a sexuality. I think films are films. You know, when people say, oh, so did you make a queer film? I'm like, I don't know. I don't think my films have like, a sexuality to them. Yes, are the characters in the film queer? Yeah, that I can tell you if they are or if they're not, but I don't think - like, clothes don't have gender, films don't have gender.
No but say films like Badhaai Do, Chandigarh Kare Aashiqui, Shubh Mangal, there's been a plethora and so much - you feel
And you can see.
You think there's a difference between that -
100%. There is no queer gaze - something that Onir has been fighting for the longest time. And again, I'm going to be an advocate for this. I feel lived experiences with always trump research. No matter how much research you do, research will always be from a third person perspective. But when you're saying something from a first person's perspective, it has to come from the person. It has to come from the source. It's like when you have bottled water, for example, right. There's a difference when you have bottled water that comes from some fancy mountain versus water that has been bottled here. You can tell the difference the minute you take a sip. You can tell the difference the minute you open the bottle, the way it snaps, that first sort of, you know, whiff of it, you can tell the difference, Parmesh. And you and I both know about this, you know. And it is these, I think. You know, there's a word in Urdu, baariki - it's the detail. Where does God lie? It is in the details. It's not in the bigness and the largeness of all of us.
That's why authenticity like -
I mean, look at everything around us, right? There are so many dupes of designer stuff going on and this and that and all of that. What do people keep looking for all the time? Authentic, real, true things. You know, yes, fusion is great, but it's only so much. It's only temporarily, eventually, in the larger scheme of things, you want to have something that's authentic.
So Faraz, I want to talk about your advertising. Because besides all these films, all these festival films and now a big feature film. You're very well known in the advertising circuit. You've done some very, very impactful work. So talk to me about your own commercial work in terms of advertising, and how that has changed.
You know, Parmesh, I have been very selective about what kind of ad films I associate myself with, predominantly for the reason that you stated - I do not want to work with anything that is very stereotypical out there, which sort of just defines already existing preconceived notion about this is how people are. This is black and this is white. I disagree to that. And hence the ad films that I choose to make they sort of break the mold in many ways, like the last one that I did, it was with Boman Irani and his two sons. Both of them are non actors. And the film was about Father's Day. It was about a whiskey brand and all of it. But it's interesting in the film, because you see the sons really step out to find a way to bring joy to their father on Father's Day. We see Mother's Day because that is supposed to be celebrated, because it's, you know, you're paying homage to your mother, a woman. That is considered to be more righteous, than celebrating your father for some reason, especially the relationship between sons and fathers. It's a very not talked about relationship, right?
Well, except in films like animal and all which are very, which is particularly toxic.
Absolutely, toxic, right? You're making a film about a very delicate relationship, right? Which is the most common relationship in the world - one of the most common, but to sort of look at it with new eyes, right? And to find my own sense of extravaganza in that setup. So when the ad came to me, was very bare bones, and then I worked with the writers, and I sort of made it bigger and larger, you know, so that it looks very Indian ad film mainstream, but the story that you're telling with it, it is very fresh, it is very new, and it is very sublime in terms of its messaging. It's about sons bonding with their father even after a certain age, and how they celebrate the dad for who he is. So it was interesting to kind of change that mold, even with the earlier work that I have done with ad films. I think it's -
Like Grey Goose or so many others.
Like Grey Goose. Grey Goose was, of course, like a larger, bigger campaign that we did, you know, and I wanted it to be out and out, unabashed in terms of celebration and identity, you know. I didn't want to hold back there, because the brand is international, you know, they have, like, new rules for it. They were like, you do what you think is right, as long as it looks glamorous, right. But even there, I had, like, Gaurav Gupta, you know, in the campaign. It was like a six episodic series, but all obviously like an ad film in that sense. But Gaurav Gupta, Akshay Tyagi, again, you know, openly queer, to have these people as role models, and not really talking about their sexuality at the heart of it, but talking about the work that they do, the professional lives that they live, right? It's interesting, because every time you see a queer person, you expect them to talk about their sexuality and give you their reasoning for it. Why? Do straight people give us reasonings for why they're straight? Then why is it? Why is it expected from us? All queer narratives do not have to be about people saying, Oh, I am queer. I'm gay. If they do, it's great. Nothing wrong with it. But why does it only have to revolve around that? There's so much more to expose, so much more to do. You know? I will also tell you one thing. There was this one filmmaker who had said, you know, why do all gay films have this, you know, when they portray like young gay people, they have like this one boy who will stand in front of the mirror and apply lipstick, why can't they just have them play a sport or something? First of all, there's nothing wrong with having a child being authentic to who they are, right. I have spent all my childhood, wearing my mother's clothes, wearing my mother's makeup, her jewelry, everything, right? And then recently, I saw pictures of Amrita Shergil dressing up in a very drag sort of form in her mother's and her aunt's clothes and jewelry and all of that, you know. And when you look at them, they look pretty androgynous, right. So I feel that it's not about what is and what isn't. It's not about right and wrong. It's about gently trying to get people to think beyond what is.
And which is why more representations in - then we will show queer kids doing sports - I mean, Made in Heaven season one had a whole track which, say, you know -
Yeah - and more representation only comes from that one place - authenticity, which kind of goes back to the larger conversation that - recently, Parmesh, just talking about authenticity, going a little off of tangent. I was reached out by someone - they identify as a Dalit and queer, and they said that they would love for me to make a film about their experiences. And I said I'd be the wrong person to do it. I would have given my left arm to do it, but I'd be the wrong person to do it. I have no lived experiences. How will I do justice to it? They're like, no, we'll write the story. We'll do everything. I said, even as a director. Being a director is like being God in that universe. I said, I would help you find someone who identifies as Dalit and queer and who also happens to be a filmmaker. Let me be of help in that capacity. Rather than me saying, No, I want to take the spotlight here. It's very imperative to understand when to step back. And this goes out to especially a lot of non-queer people out there making queer content. Why are you doing it? you know, why? It's not your story to tell. Would you want someone else to tell your story? No, you say, No, this is my story. I'll say this my way.
So create platforms, so that -
Create opportunities. Create platforms. I hate the word empower, because that means one person is already in power. I believe in creating opportunities, right, which kind of, again, led to a lot of things that I do, right, other than filmmaking
like the fellowship that -
Like TransAction, it's called Trans and Action - stupid thing I came up with.
Which is with Keshav and the Lalit group of hotels.
With the Keshav Suri Foundation, yeah. And I remember this idea when it came to me, I was sitting at the Keshav Suri Foundation launch, where you were also there. After that, we all went for dinner, and Keshav was like, you know, baby, we have to do something. I said, I have an idea. I said, we always talk about so many things, let's put our moneys where our mouth is. I said, listen, you have your hotels across India. I will bring in the talent. I will do these sessions myself. Let's create opportunities to build skills, especially in the space of acting, in the space of filmmaking for queer people, you know, because when we say -
So it's queer or trans?
Initially it was trans. Now queer people came up to us and they said that, can we also be a part of it? And we said, Okay, let us -
So these are workshops for - or skill building workshops for queer people
For queer people, but with special focus on trans people.
On trans people to become better actors or filmmakers.
To consider themselves for a profession in acting or filmmaking or storytelling. We've also added new things, which a lot of people said that they'd like to - like some of them want to be entrepreneurs. They want to understand small scale businesses. Some of them want to be social media influencers. As years have gone by, we've sort of expanded our little acting workshop into adding more sessions by bringing more industry experts. And interestingly, Parmesh, a lot of them got hired by these industry experts, because what you're doing here, you're creating a safe space for a queer person to be themselves, and then you get an industry expert, you get a mentor from outside who gets to experience and understand where this person is coming from. And then they're like, Hey, you're fabulous. Let me hire you. In fact, at our last TransAction, which we did in June this year in Delhi, we were expecting about 30 people. We had about 95 people show up, which was crazy. Out of that, about 12 of them have been hired by the mentors who had come to host the sessions, and they're all very happy. And in fact, interestingly, one of the designers who hired three people from the workshop, I was recently dealing with her because I wanted an outfit, and I was speaking to one of my participants from TransAction, who's now handling all her media and collaborations, and I literally teared up.
Yeah. What a moment of pride.
Full Circle. Full Circle, Parmesh. This is why we do what we do. See permission, I know one thing that I want to create a legacy of love for generations of children to come after me, especially queer children, because I did not have the things that I have now, but I would want to leave behind those things for the generations to come. And I feel like as queer people, as people who have some sense of access, it's imperative to create those opportunities. You know, we can build our castles bigger and bigger and bigger, but when we build that one bridge across the river, what it's going to do is beyond us.
Yeah. No, thank you. I know that many people who would be listening to this might be from, say, the business world. So there might be people from HR, people from business, there might be MBA students. So, you know, if they're listening, what advice would you give them - people in corporate India, queer and straight. It's mostly straight, you know, how do they work on their products? How do they work on their experiences and services to make them more representative of the larger world? Because so much of what we see in the larger world, whether it's products, whether it's services, whether their experiences, is very much, you know, designed for, by etc, without even including whether it's queer, whether it's persons with disabilities, whether it's any other minority. So what advice would you give these people from the business world as they think about the future?
You know, one thing that my mother always used to tell me while I was growing up, she said, while your face is towards the sky, your ear should be on the ground. And I did not understand it then, and I still don't understand most of it, but I do understand some of it now. That metaphorical slap that I got at Harvard University when I was asked about representation, which made me sit back and be like, Wow, what am I doing, right? I feel if every day we sit back and ask ourselves this one question, What am I doing, or am I doing enough? I think that itself is a good place to begin. One more thing that I would like to say is that read all the rule books, and then don't follow them, but know what the rules are, right. When you talk about diversity and inclusion in the corporate world, because I have done so many screenings now for corporations with Sisak, with Sheer Korma, and done a lot of conversations after the screening. One thing I've realized is that there is so much that so many people want to do, so much that so many people want to say things. There's not enough platforms. Build those platforms, and this is purely business Parmesh, the pink dollar is real. I have heard it kaching kaching kaching in my ears multiple times, right?
And now pink rupee in India -
And pink rupee, oh, God - massively, right? Massively, something that a lot of businesses are not even looking at even now, even film businesses, for that matter, right? Because we're still catering to the non pink rupee for the pink rupee. If you know what I mean. You know we are making films for people who don't identify as queer, but we are trying to tell them our story. What about we change our understanding and say, let me make a larger film, which is about queer people, but it's so inclusive that it includes everyone. What is inclusion but that? That all of us come together, taking out multiple understandings through that singular experience. I mean, look at the amount of designers, I'd say 90-95% of designers in India are either openly queer or closeted, right? The amount of contribution that queer people do to the arts, but also beyond the arts, restaurants, businesses, big businesses. I mean, look at Apple, right? It has an openly a queer person, right, out and proud, absolutely right? When you start looking at those people as icons and the legacies that they've created, and you start sort of molding that back home, you start nurturing that back home. Maybe 10 years down the line, we'll have our own apple. We'll have our own billion dollar business. It's all about nurturing.
Yeah so you create a supportive ecosystem in which queer leaders can thrive.
You create a safe space. Absolutely, absolutely. I think more than that, you create a safe space, first of all, at home, then at schools. And then at all workplaces, let people be.
And for everyone listening, as Faraz has just said, right? It's the right thing to do. It's profitable. Queer people are audiences. Queer people are markets. For that matter, any group of people in that sense, are, you know, are your audience, are your markets. So while this episode has been specifically about being queer and being Muslim. The truth is, any minority out there, if you're not thinking of us and looking at us and addressing us through multiple ways, you're really losing out. I wanted to ask you, in whatever you make, your films, your ads, everything - do you feel the reception is different from non queer people and by queer people. Or do you feel that people respond similarly to your work?
Interestingly, all the films, like whatever work I have done so far, the response has been pretty similar across queer, non-queer people, and I feel that maybe it comes from the fact that I try to make very make very universal stories that are not just catered to a section and it talks to everyone. I feel that, again, is a language thing, like I told you know that, yes, you want to make a film about queer people, but the way you want to make it is something that I'm so used to watching in a mainstream, for the lack of a better word, commercial understanding in India, You know, there's this thing called commercial cinema. So if I make these stories about queer characters, but I make it in a very commercial mainstream way, it caters to a larger segment of people which I would want my story to go to. Why would I not want to do business? Why would I not want to make 100 crores? It's stupid of me to be like No, but I don't want to be.
So using the masala format, but you're queering it with -
I feel using a universal language. There's a language that we all understand. I was recently in Paris for a holiday, for my birthday. I don't speak French except for like bonjour and merci, and that's about it. I could communicate with them with my little understanding of French and their little understanding of whatever English I spoke, and we could have conversations there. What is that language that I'm using, and they are understanding, and they are speaking and I'm understanding? It's the human language of emotions. When your emotions are correct, no matter who you are, where you come from, because you're talking about universal relationships, Parmesh.
Then my audience response is the same
Yeah. What is Sisak about? It's about love between two people. A lot of non-queer people, actually, who saw Sisak, they said to me that I didn't even realize that one - both are men, right. In Sheer Korma, they were like, but it's about a mother and their child. I wouldn't say smart. You have to be very prudent to take a universal subject, and then transform it into something so personal, something so rooted and so universal at the same time. That is something I feel is a sure shot hit, and which I think even Bun Tikki does, because predominantly, it's about a father and his child. The hero of Bun Tikki is a seven year old child. If in 2021 or even 2022 you would have told me Bun Tikki is going to be the first feature film that I make from all the films that I have written, I would have laughed at your face. On paper, at least, it's not a film that I can take to any producer - even the most independent producer, if I take it to them, they'll be like, What is this film? And here I am with Manish Malhotra, who's like, you know, the most celebrated Indian designer. He's the golden child of Bollywood.
How did he get convinced?
I think my mother's blessings, to be honest, but I think over and above that -
You also got Jio producing it.
Yes, Jio studios and Manish Malhotra's company called Stage Five. I think Manish read the film, and he really enjoyed it, and he reached out to me. I remember the first time I met Manish. I was super nervous, right? I still remember, it was the 13th of Jan, 2023 and it was a Friday. It was Friday the 13th. I was really scared. I'm very superstitious. I was like, I don't know if this is the right day to meet him. Can we push the meeting by a day? And Sunny Bhambani, who works for Manish, he said, just come. He doesn't have time, so this is the day if you want to come see him. And I've, like, prayed to everyone out there. I've gone to Mother Mary at Mount Mary. I've lit a candle, and I've gone there and I've sat down, and Manish walks in, and the first thing he said to me - he said, listen Faraz, we're making this film, and even if there's no studio that's going to support it, I'm going to put my own money. I'm going to make this film.
How amazing.
And I remember, I could feel the tears running down my cheeks, right. But I could just not speak Parmesh. I was just like, I was just, I remember nodding my head continuously. He said, are you okay? Do you need some water? He said, you want to say something? I was like, I just didn't know what to say. I was tongue tied, right? But for someone of his caliber to have that belief in a film, which is very personal, but also very universal. And I think with all our visions coming together, it looks very mainstream and very sunlit, you know, he gave me all the things that I asked for. I wanted to shoot it in Shimla. I wanted to shoot it in Nainital on real locations. I said, I don't want to build a set. I want to go to the mountains and shoot it, the way they used to do in the 70s, you know, pahado wali film. You know, it's that winter wonderland, sunkissed, Christmas, all the things that I love, right?
And you got the actresses also
And, of course, my god, Shabana Azmi, Zeenat Aman, Abhay Deol, a few more actors that I can't talk about as yet. But the hero of my film is a seven year old boy. Right? In this industry, if you go to any producer and tell them, I want to make a film about a seven year old child, they'll laugh at you. It's not a commercially viable idea if you tell them that my protagonist is a seven year old - we don't make films about children for children, right. That doesn't exist because they're like, who's gonna bother about them? Give them one Walt Disney film that will come internationally, dub it in Hindi, and give it and they'll be happy, right. To create something which is so rooted in our ethos, but at the same time, so universal and with a child protagonist, I don't think it has happened since Masoom, right. So I think with Bun Tikki, it's a very deeply personal film. So I feel like very seen in the film. You know, like parts of myself that I've never really put out there, they are, like, up there for the world to see. And I'm genuinely very proud of this film. And it takes, I think, a lot of courage for me to say this out loud, but what we've made and what we've been able to create, I will proudly stand by it for the rest of my life.
Yeah, no, I'm so happy. And, you know, stories like this give us such hope that in the India of today, when people like you, with you know, with your creativity, with your intersecting identities, are able to own yourself, carve a space for yourself, tell the stories that you tell, it gives you great hope that there's so much more that could be done with representation, but at least things are changing, and at least slowly being able to tell the range of stories that we are, right.
Slowly, surely, eventually.
Eventually, yeah. And I really also love how you are using the power, the position, the privilege to create that, you know, to widen the ecosystem for everyone. So I'm like, super, super grateful. Faraz I just want to ask you very quickly, because besides being this incredible filmmaker, you have this parallel life as a fashion icon. You're on every fashion power list. You're consistently one of the well - most well-dressed people in our country. Tell me about this parallel life, A what fashion means to you, just for pleasure. But also, what does it mean because people see you - you started by saying how you saw me years ago, and how that widened your idea of, you know, what one could wear and how one could be, and you are that, you know, icon for the next generation. So tell me about you know what fashion means to you and how you use fashion.
So you know, there's a dialog in Dil Toh Pagal Hai, where someone says to - for Madhuri's character called Maya. He says, Maya khud ke liye naachti hai, Maya dances for herself. I feel I dress up for myself. And when that gaze is so personal, I keep no holds barred to myself when I decide to dress up, right? I love fashion. I absolutely adore clothes. I adore accessories. I adore jewelry. If I wouldn't have been a filmmaker, in all probability, I would have been a designer or a teacher like that's the oddity I exist in, but I feel like it is a way of self expression without speaking. I just put on what I want, and I go out and I'll and people will immediately know who you are. I don't even have to say a word. It's so visual, right. And personally, for a filmmaker, it really defines, defines me for who I am. I remember like, Shabana Ji telling me every day on set, right, when she used to come on set for Bun Tikki - even Sheer Korma, she was like, I am afraid to even wear my costumes in front of Faraz because Faraz will show up like - and trust me, I have shot Bun Tikki for 32 days. For 32 days, I had my looks sorted before I have taken this trip. From my shawls to my scarves to my shoes to my socks to my jacket to my sweaters, basically shooting in like really cold weather - all my four layers are sorted. I have pictures of like, how I used to put all my layers together and, of course, mix and matching. But I think fashion has always been something which is inherently a part of who I am as a person. You know, I love it, and I am not ashamed about it. You know, a lot of PR people told me they were like, nobody will take you seriously as a film director. You know, look at the film directors today. They wear a T shirt and they wear denims, and they go and they make film. I was like I'm not gonna be that person. I'm gonna wear my trench coats and I'm gonna, you know, even it's smoldering heat, I don't care. I will dress up. I personally feel dress up for the job that you want, right? If you ask the the 10 year old Faraz, what he wanted to do back then - I don't identify as a he anymore, but I remember, that Faraz would have said, Faraz wants to direct an ad film for Chanel, starring like a big icon, like a big Hollywood icon.
Rekha
Rekha now, I'd do it with Rekha in a heartbeat - like you know, but that's what I wanted to do. I feel all my films are at that intersection of fashion and art, even Bun Tikki, everyone is dressed to the tea, even if they're at home sitting having a cup of chai. Everyone is dressed up. Because when you come to my house, everyone dresses up in the morning, everyone is presentable throughout the day. I actually wear night suits to bed. Proper night suits.
Which is beautiful. Monogrammed of course.
100%, with my name written and, you know, my cuffs and all. But that's who I am as a person. And I feel it's a little Victorian, it's a little Jane Austen type, you know, I'm a little old school. I get it, but I love it.
Thank you. Thank you for being your fabulous self, and the world is richer for it. And I think the Chanel film is on its way.
Oh my god. I hope so.
People are going to listen to this and you're gonna get the call.
Yes, please. Yes. I hope so, fingers crossed.
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